Accidental handgun discharges and Glock

This is an old theme on these pages.  Don't you wish the issue would just go away?  Me too.  But there are two more recent local cases of Glock accidents.  One resulted in a school principal losing his job and facing criminal charges.  The other resulted in a death.

Here's the premise again:  Glock handguns are designed to make it as easy and fast as possible to shoot.  They don't have a manual safety, and they have a relatively light trigger pull.  The consequence is that there are a lot of accidental discharges involving Glock brand handguns.

They are very popular among law enforcement personnel and competition shooters because they are so easy to shoot, especially since they don't have that bothersome manual safety to fiddle with when the shooter is ready to shoot.

They are also popular in the general public.  Maybe there's a macho thing going on, sort of like riding a motorcycle without a helmet.  Safety be damned, a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do and all that.  Besides, it's not the gun's fault, there's always some carelessness involved.  "It couldn't happen to me."

The quick draw cowboys

The old cowboy movies and tv shows from the 50's and 60' s often ended with good triumphing over evil in a main street fast draw.  Some of those actors were quite accomplished at it, and they could draw a gun from a holster and fire it in a split second.  And those were single action revolvers that had to be cocked first.  (Those shooters who think that a manual safety is too time consuming might keep that in mind.)

However, none of those cowboy actors would ever think of carrying around a loaded revolver already cocked.  But a loaded Glock is already cocked, at least partially.  So it doesn't take much to set it off.

Corrections

In previous entries on this topic I said that Glocks don't have any indicator to alert its owner that there is a bullet in the chamber.  The models manufactured during or after 2002, I've been told, have a visual load indicator.  The old ones don't have one, but they can be retrofitted at the owners' expense.  Also I mistakenly referred to the thing that strikes the Glock firing pin as a "hammer."  It's actually called a "striker," and thanks to the people who kindly pointed that out as well as to those who weren't so kind.

Happiness is a warm gun

Some Glock owners are very passionate about their Glocks, but I'm mystified by the emotion.  Maybe an amateur psychologist could help us out.  It's just a hunk of metal and plastic.  I wonder if Corvair owners were angry at Ralph Nader back when he was trying to show that they had a tendency to flip over too easily.  I'm certainly not trying to compare myself with Ralph Nader, but still, I wonder.  Maybe it's misdirected anger caused by the pain experienced by facing an uncomfortable fact.

Anyway, back to the issue at hand.  Let's make some comparisons.

How hard is it to pull a trigger?

Glock --

The Glock website says that the trigger pull weight for a standard off-the-shelf Glock is 5.5 lbs.  See Glock 23 (.40 caliber) and Glock 36 (.45 caliber).  Remember that a loaded Glock is already at least partially cocked, so that 5.5 lbs of pressure is all it takes to send a bullet on its way out into the world.

A handgun expert said that the NYPD issues Glocks with a "New York trigger" which has a pull weight of 12 lbs.  And some competition shooters install a trigger with a pull weight of 3.5 lbs.  So those alterations would result in a Glock that is harder or easier to shoot, respectively.

Beretta --

By contrast, the Beretta M9, the handgun issued by the U.S. military, has a trigger pull of 12.33 lbs in double action mode and 5.50 lbs in single action mode.  (Source).  Double action refers to the sequence begun when the hammer is resting on the frame.  Pulling the trigger causes the hammer to cock and release.  Single action refers to the sequence begun when the trigger is pulled when the hammer is already cocked.

The M9 has a manual safety, by the way.

Sig Sauer --

For comparison, another well made handgun is manufactured by Sig Arms.  According to their website, the .45 caliber Sig P220, which has no manual safety, has a trigger pull of 10.0 lbs. in double action mode and 4.5 in single action mode.

The truth is out there

Anecdotes tell the story, but they don't really prove anything.  Here's a worthwhile project for someone with the time and money to do it.  The Freedom of Information Act allows any citizen to make an inquiry of the Federal government for documents.  So someone could make a FOIA request for documents indicating the number and circumstances of reported accidental handgun discharges in the U.S. armed forces within some time period.

And the state of Texas has an Open Records Act which is similar to FOIA.  So the person undertaking this project could make queries of several Texas municipal police departments for reported accidental handgun discharges and the type of gun involved.

If the results show a statistically significant number then a proper comparison could be made.  Any volunteers?

Next up, the two recent cases.  (UPDATED WITH LINK.)  See The Two Recent Accidental Glock Discharges, detailed.

Comments

[Eric]

George, thanks for the education about the potential safety issues of Glock handguns. I'm evaluating several options for a concealed carry weapon, and Glock has been at the top of my list. However, I'm hearing a lot folks who are knowledgeable and whom I respect offer some compelling reasons for going another direction (Springfield seems to be moving to the top of the list).

It is interesting how emotionally attached people seem to get to their firearms. ;-)

[Les]

If your intent is to dissuade us Glockers, you messed up by using "Happiness is a warm gun" in this entry. As a HUGE fan of the Beatles, I will now and forever link the two.

[Geo]

Eric, Springfield makes a Glock clone that has a grip safety which probably makes it safer to handle than a Glock. Call me a sissy, but I prefer a manual safety.

[Geo]

Aw Les, you made your mind up long ago. Just be safe, okay?

[Les]

He's on to us, boys. Let's make a run for it. Hey, watch where you're pointing that thing!

[Mike P.]

I'm not a Glock fan. I have shot several thousand rounds through them though. I don't even own a centerfire or rimfire pistol anymore. I do own and shoot and hunt with rimfire rifles and airguns fairly regularly though.

A 5.5# isn't really a light trigger pull, even on a pistol. And a Glock even without the current chamber loaded indicator is easily distinguished as cocked if the trigger is in a 'fireable' position.

The Colt Single Action revolver of the Old West isn't any more safe an alternative when a round is under the hammer at the quarter cock safety position. It is probably one of the most 'unsafe' designs because once cocked from an empty chamber (cylinder hole), it isn't safe and is extremely vulnerable of being discharge from bumping the hammer. The Glock's modern design prevents this.

Glock offers a consistant trigger pull instead of the two dramatically different trigger pulls of a traditional double action pistol. It has no transition to make from two dramatically different pull weights and types, so a steadier 'aim' is easier to keep. Realistically in the often split second decision making of using a firearm in deadly force, a safety is often easily forgotten to be dis-engaged. No police department that I know of requires pistols other than Single Action types like the 1911 to be carried with the safety engaged including the many that carry Smith and Wesson or Beretta double action pistols equipped with a safety. Beretta even came out with versions of the 92 (9mm) and 96 (.40 cal) that offer decock only like the Sig Sauer pistols because of this. The Glock is an extremely tough (weather and neglect resistant) and reliable weapon too.

The problem here wasn't a poorly designed pistol. It was a unsecured fiream, outside of a holster covering its trigger guard, haphazzardly thrown loose into a bag with many other items and forgotten (supposedly), and which probably was grabbed and had its trigger pulled (if the principal wasn't actually just messing with it in his office).

This was user error. Not inanimate object (gun) error.

Just my opinion.

[RAY]

WELL LETS SEE MY GLOCK DOES HAVE A SAFETY AND ITS LOCATED ON THE TRIGGER. FIRST OFF LETS STATE ONE SIMPLE SOLUTION. IF YOU FINGER IS ON THE TRIGGER YOU BETTER BE READY TO SHOT SOMETHING OR SOMEONE. YOU FINGER SHOULD NEVER BE ON THE TRIGGER FOR ANY REASON WHEN YOU ARE NOT READY TO SHOOT. I DONT GET IT ANY OTHER WAY. THE GLOCK WILL NOT GO OFF UNLESS THE TRIGGER IS PULLED PERIOD. YOU CAN USE IT AS A HAMMER AND DRIVE A NAIL AND IT WILL NOT GO OFF UNLESS U PULL THE TRIGGER. IF THAT ISNT SAFE I DONT KNOW WHAT IS. SO THAT MEANS THE PRINCIPAL HAD HIS FINGER ON THE TRIGGER AND PULLED NO MATTER WHAT HE SAID HAPPENED. I HAD A FRIEND WHO HAD AN AD HE DROPPED HIS GLOCK WHEN HE TOOK IT OUT OF THE HOLSTER TO PUT IT IN HIS GUN SAFE AND HE GRABBED IT AS IT FELL HE GRABBED THE TRIGGER. I ALSO HAVE DROPPED MINE AFTER THIS AND I JUST LET IT HIT THE GROUND AND THEN I PICKED IT UP SAFELY. IF YOU OWN A GUN KNOW IT INSIDE AND OUT AND USE YOUR HEAD AND THE GLOCK SHOULD NEVER HAVE AN AD

[John F Hickey]

Thought you might be interested in an accidental shooting in 2002 of a child by a Philadelphia police officer doing "show-and-tell" with what is said to be a 9mm Glock, in a scenario where the officer grabbed for a dropped gun.

"Principal Francine Fulton said Carter-Moragne had just put the clip back in the gun when she dropped the weapon. It was unclear whether the gun fired when it hit the floor or when the officer retrieved it, police said Thursday. Some students said Carter-Moragne dropped the gun before replacing the clip and that it fired while she was reloading it." (from AP)

The original AP story, which I'm posting below, did not mention the make of the gun, but an editorial at http://www.temple-news.com/media/paper143/news/2002/02/14/Opinion/Editorial.No.Guns.No.Exceptions-184072.shtml, in the student paper of Philadelphia's Temple University, says it was a "9mm Glock semi-automatic pistol."

From http://www.philadelphiaweekly.com/view.php?id=140:
"Philadelphia Police carry comparatively wimpy-sounding 9mm Glock 17 pistols. But 'bigger isn't necessarily better,' says Sgt. Norman Davenport of the Philadelphia Police Department's Lethal and Protective Weapons Unit. 'If PATCO says they've got the better gun, you've gotta ask how it performs. The Glock 17 will outperform the .40-caliber Glock.'"

February 7, 2002

HEADLINE: 10-Year-Old Grazed by Bullet

BYLINE: JOANN LOVIGLIO; Associated Press Writer

DATELINE: PHILADELPHIA

BODY:
The gun of an off-duty police officer accidentally went off as she spoke to her child's fourth-grade class, firing a bullet that grazed the cheek of a 10-year-old boy.

The boy, James Reeves, was treated and released from a hospital following Wednesday's incident.

Officer Vanessa Carter-Moragne, 39, was reassigned to desk duty pending an investigation. Police Commissioner Sylvester Johnson declined to discuss disciplinary action but acknowledged the officer could lose her job.

Carter-Moragne's child was among the 23 fourth-graders in the class at the Imani Education Circle Charter School. Officials said she let the students see the gun and clip and let them pass the gun around.

Principal Francine Fulton said Carter-Moragne had just put the clip back in the gun when she dropped the weapon. It was unclear whether the gun fired when it hit the floor or when the officer retrieved it, police said Thursday.

Some students said Carter-Moragne dropped the gun before replacing the clip and that it fired while she was reloading it.

The charter school, which is run by a community board of directors, was cordoned off Wednesday afternoon and treated as a crime scene as parents arrived to pick up their children.

Tim Williams said he heard about a shooting on the news and rushed to the school to pick up his son Armani, a kindergartner.

"It's too close for comfort," he said.

Children from the same school were involved in an incident last week in which a substitute bus driver allegedly threatened unruly students, saying he had a weapon and ordering them to keep quiet. Police stopped the bus and found the 58-year-old driver with a 9 mm semiautomatic gun.

The driver, who had a permit for the weapon, was questioned by police but not charged.

[Robert Mendoza]

i am a glock owner in fact i own 2 glocks .40 calber with the 3.5 lb trigers.
by design guns are dangerus and to belive a lever or a button actualy makes a gun safe it's somewhat simplistic ignorance. the only safety any gun has is the actual person handeling it.
the only way to fire a glock with out actualy pulling the triger is to trow it in the fire. glock has 3 internal safetys. one bolcks the fireing pen it's desable when you "pull the triger" , the second one is that only fires on doble action mening the striker can not be cacked and it will only engage when you "pull the triger" and the last one is the one that blocks the triger and it disengages when... well you get the point, exuse the spelling but i have to run and get some dinner , i got to get my boots, my glock and my keys.

[Joseph]

All of these accidents are preventable if people take basic safety precautions. In any firearms course, the first thing they teach you is to treat every weapon as though it is loaded. Putting a safety on a weapon doesn't make it any safer. A safety provides a false sense of security. Safeties fail and in no case is a loaded weapon ever "safe". Comparing a real gunfight to one in a movie also isn't a fair analogy. Actors can re-film a scene if they mess up and they also aren't in fear for their lives. In a high stress situation, a person's fine motor skills (the kind needed to disengage a safety on a handgun) decrease dramatically. There is also very little difference between a 3-lb trigger pull and a 15-lb trigger pull under stress. If something startles a shooter and their finger is on the trigger, their hands will clench and pull the trigger in both cases. I've seen firearms instructors demonstrate this (in controlled environments) with unloaded weapons on shooters who were not aware that this test was being performed. Glocks are popular because they fire when the trigger is pulled and almost never fail. They function exactly the same way from the first round to the last. I worked in law enforcement for several years with a firearms instructor who spent time in Iraq. He stopped carrying his beretta because it jammed whenever it got dusty (which takes almost no time in Iraq). He was able to acquire a Glock from a special forces friend and never had problems with the weapon firing when he needed it to. I don't want a gun that isn't reliable and I don't want the police using such weapons, either.

[Handgun Charlie]

Stop the Stupidity people.

1) never point a weapon at anyone you don't intend to kill.
2) never put your finger on the trigger until you are ready to shoot.
3) treat every weapon as if it has a chambered round. And for many people it's a real good idea not to chamber a round until you are ready to fire it.

All this talk about extra safeties and bullet indicators , and flashing lights & Whistles are all fluff. The best safety of any weapon is #1 and #2 above.
And as far as all these gun "accidents" - INCOMPETENCE - LACK OF TRAINING - JUST PLAIN STUPID. There are people in this world that can't be trusted with a garden hose in their hand.
Memorize safety tip 1. Then memorize safety tip 2. I know I'll feel safer if I am at the range next to you.

[Henry]

Glock's have an excellent record of not going off unless the trigger is pulled. 'Nuff said.

[al]

handgun charlie is 100% correct. follow the basic rules of firearm safety and there's no problem. also there's a glock trigger blocking mechanism which is an excellent back up precaution. essentially it's a piece of plastic designed to fit behind the trigger to prevent unintended discharge. it can be removed in an instant so the need to quickly pull the trigger is not adversely effected.
al

[DeepClue]

Some gun ownership proponents will always go around in circles about how it's not the gun's fault, it's the mishandling of the user that's at fault. First of all, no mechanical device is fault-free. And even if mishandling accounts for the majority of accidents (I believe that), to fall into a false sense of security that "if rules had been followed this would have not happened" is naive at best. Mistakes happen and it's better if they do with a paper clip.

If you own a gun, you have a higher chance of killing yourself or someone loved; this is Statistics 101. For crying outloud, the thing is built -to kill-.

I personally like guns very much, but I cannot bear the thought of a mistake.

[Mitchell A, Ota]

Well, I have a sure-fire way to make any Glock to be a far safer handgun to carry loaded. Just email me at [email protected], and I'll tell you about it. It is a simple, foolproof device that works in ALL autoloading pistols.

[Mitchell A.M. Ota]

I have invented a neat safety device for Glock pistols. Carry a Glock safely with the cahmber loaded. Pull the trigger, nothing happens. In half a second the Glock is ready to fire.

http://glocktalk.com/classifieds/showproduct.php?product=17430&title=otapin&cat=6

[email protected]